Updated: Thu Sep. 04 2008 3:28:58 PM

CTV.ca News Staff

A Taliban attack that killed three Canadian soldiers shows the price of not having enough troops to hold and secure hard-won ground in Afghanistan, says a prominent retired general.

"What's worrisome is it happened in Zhari district," Maj.-Gen. Lewis Mackenzie told Canada AM of Wednesday's attack on an armoured personnel carrier that wounded another five soldiers.

Canada started its mission in Kandahar province in February 2006. One of the soldiers killed -- Cpl. Andrew Grenon, 23, of 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry -- was in the first rotation, Mackenzie said.

"And they cleaned out Zhari district, which is where this attack happened yesterday. And now, two years later, Canadians only control approximately one-third of Zhari district. The Taliban control (the remainder)," he said Thursday.

"Once you win a battle, you can't just abandon the area. You have to secure it. And there are nowhere near enough troops in southern Afghanistan to secure the ground that's won."

NATO is failing at the political level to generate enough troops, Mackenzie said.

Canada has 2,500 troops in Kandahar. NATO agreed last spring to add 1,000 more.

The U.S. has recently dispatched 800 combat troops to Maywand district, which is just north of Zhari and Panjwaii, another district where Canadian soldiers have been involved in constant skirmishes with the Taliban.

But Mackenzie said 800 here or there won't make that much of a difference. "I'm talking somewhere about 10,000 required to secure the territory," he said.

'Worrisome'

In the spring of 2007, the Taliban had success in causing multiple casualties by attacking Canadian armoured personnel carriers with large improvised explosive devices planted in the roadside.

However, insurgents attacked this LAV III carrier out on a security patrol Wednesday without using a roadside bomb. Smith said it's been two years since the Taliban killed so many Canadian soldiers in a direct attack.

"This is attack is worrisome in the kind of sophistication of the attack. At the same time we have not done the complete investigation on it," Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk said Wednesday at a defence conference in Banff.

"We've got great soldiers out there who again will react to this, have a look at it, learn from this and apply those lessons."

Natynczyk said there has been an increase in Taliban activity in the past few months, but he couldn't say what is behind the group's more aggressive tactics.

"The security situation during this campaign season and the fighting season is tough and we are seeing sophisticated capabilities in terms of training proficiency of the Taliban, not only in our own region but also in the Regional Command East and in Helmand province as well," he said.

"But at the same time we're learning, we're adapting and trying to get ahead of the Taliban."

Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Wednesday that the Taliban's fighting season might be set for a seasonal slowdown.

"We know there have been times that the tempo has increased when the kinetic activity has gone down. Traditionally we have seen now as we enter Ramadan a slowing down of some of the violence which we hope and expect," he said.

Mackenzie said Thursday that he doubted there would be any "holiday" from the fighting due to Ramadan, the Muslim holy month.

Globe and Mail reporter Graeme Smith told Canada AM from Afghanistan that Ramadan has historically been a quieter period -- except in the last two years. Some Taliban look on this as a good time to commit suicide attacks "because the gates of Heaven are open," he said.

The latest casualties push Canada's military death toll to 96 since 2002. Of the five injured soldiers, one remains in critical condition. Another is in serious condition, two others are in good condition and the last has been treated and returned to duty.

One of the three fallen soldiers would have been returning to Canada in a matter of weeks.

Ramp ceremony

Thousands of coalition troops gathered at dusk on Thursday at Kandahar Air Field to see off the bodies of their fallen comrades.

Twenty-four teary-eyed pallbearers carried the caskets of Grenon, Cpl. Mike Seggie and Pte. Chad Horn into the aircraft.

Pte. Glen Kirkland, one of the five wounded in the attack, also attended the ceremony. He got out of a wheelchair after the ceremony and eased his way up the aircraft's ramp to say goodbye.

With files from The Canadian Press

Please Add Comments

MM
My sincere condolences to these brave men's families. Your son's, father's, uncles and brother's have served Canada and paid the ultimate sacrifice. We stand proud and united because of their heroic efforts.

John from Fredericton
If the beaucrats at the NATO countries (except us, the U.S and France) weren't so hesitant to send more of their troops just to satisfy their electorate, then this mess would not have happen.

Pugfire
Sadly, this is the same thing as happened to the USA in Vietnam. Take an area at the cost of lives, on both sides, then abandon it back to the enemy, only to have to retake it later, again at the cost of lives.

Why do we never learn from the lessons of the past?
Doomed to repeat history!!

Garbo
of coarse there is not enough, just like it was stated " you have to secure it"

I'd rather no war but it's not going that way right now.

The taliban has changed there tactics...so should we.

kerry ten eyck
I have had at least 7 acquaintances not return alive from Afghanistan. There is a perception that all NATO allies are not stepping up to the plate and that neighbouring countries supposedly allied against terrorism are harbouring terrorists. Are we to treat our armed forces as cannon fodder until somebody makes life saving decisions? KATE

Dave
"John from Fredericton
If the beaucrats at the NATO countries (except us, the U.S and France) weren't so hesitant to send more of their troops just to satisfy their electorate, then this mess would not have happen."

France.....Sends more troops it looks good on paper except one major problem the area that France allows those troops to work in, is safer then Kandahar where the Canadians, America, British,(which you forgot) and dutch are stationed and doing most of the heavy fighting. Canada, U.S and British have been doing the bulk of the fighting. What Canada needs is Obama to be elected so he can follow though on his promise to pull out of Iraq and more 10,000+troops to Afghanistan where they are needed. Iraq seems to not have as much attacks against people and American's and is handling the fighting themselves. time to boaster Afghanistan, and then reexamine NATO and weather or not it's worth keeping. I say maybe those that are doing their share in Afghanistan should drop NATO and form it's own alliance.

terry
This whole exercise is futile, and we will continue to lose lives, right up to the point we leave with our tail between our legs.

Shane Prpich
The fact that anyone is using the death of our Canadian sons as a military tactic for an increase in troop deployment is SICKINING!

How about we just send every citizen in the world to fight and call it operation "Armageddon"?

Al from Ottawa
My condolences to the soldiers' families. They are in my prayers.

I do agree that more troops are needed. But I think the best way to decrease the number of insurgents - most are non-Afghan, and come across the border from Pakistan. My brother's opinion (serving in Afghanistan) is that a temporary buffer zone around 2km wide should be declared along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border where no one is allowed. This area should be continuously patrolled by drones, and anything seen moving in this zone will have artillery rain down on that location.

With the flow of these psycho decreased, there will be a greater chance to get more of the Afghan troops trained up.

Marcel
I offer my sympathies to the families of these brave soldiers. My question is how many more deaths of our brave soldiers before the Canadian public realize that we have no business in that country. The former USSR invaded that country twenty years ago and it did absolutely nothing. It is time that the Harper government bring home our troops. Thank you

Postie
I feel sadness every time a soldier's death is announced. I did not know Cpl Seggie but either his Dad or Uncle was in 2PPCLI when I was with the BN.

Rest In Peace boys.

James in Calgary
I think it is time for Canada to make a statement to our NATO allies; we should send in 25,000 troops and get to work getting the job done. If our allies do nothing to support us in our joint commitment to return Afganistan to its people a free and sovergn nation then we need to bow out of NATO. Our soldiers do not have the choice to pick and choose their assignments or where they will be deployed why should our allies? Every day that they do not fully support us is a slap in the face to both our present soldiers and the fallen.

Daily our allies are made aware of the scrifices that Canadians will make for the weak and oppressed. Do they need to have a reminder that when it was many of them who were in need of our help that Canadians faught and died for thir freedom?

BillR
Hey Kate... it's not a perception. Our allies are *not* stepping up to the plate, and are letting us take it on the chin for them. I would encourage our government to let NATO know that we don't see the point in being in an alliance if we are one of the only ones 'putting up'.

Dennis L. Krahn
The general is so right, once an area is secured: hold it and if you want to do battle with the terrorists commit to it whole heartedly or not at all.

Personally I think the lives Canada is losing in Afghanistan is a tragedy; the Taliban is fighting for Islam, not territory; because of that life to them loses its value.

Garbo
If we didn't have our BRAVE soldiers over there fighting, us citizens would have no choice but to be there...Thank you

I am a military wife...I do not like to see any soldiers going overseas, but we have to, and if it takes more going over there now to stop a war or just send a few now and then and keep it going on forever, I'd rather send them now.

All I'm saying is whatever we have to do to stop this war should be done.

enough is enough

RIP Pte. Horn, Cpl. Seggie, Cpl. Grenon

Stop the war
MM said "We stand proud and united because of their heroic efforts"

Uh, no we don't. A very large number of Canadians (probably a majority) don't agree with the ongoing occupation of Afghanistan. The Afghanistan occupation is not unifying Canada - it is dividing it.

Afghans are killing NATO soldiers in increasing numbers. NATO is killing Afghan civilians in increasing numbers. It's a vicious cycle that will not stop as long as NATO smugly stands there alongside brutal Islamists telling the people how to live at gunpoint while firing ordinance over their heads at other brutal Islamists. This hypocritical violent charade needs to stop. The sooner Canada is out of this disaster the better.

A PROUD CANADIAN
"God Bless the families of these "FALLEN HEROES" for giving CANADA their sons.

It is written in the "Good News Book" that "There is no greater love than to give ones life for another" !

These "Fallen Heroes", have done just that, and freely and without malice, or aforethought, gallantly and honourably served their Nation with their "Supreme Sacrifice".

Their names are forever etched in the Nations Archives & in the hearts of their familes and friends.

"True Freedom is not Free ~ It's bought at a price".

" GOD BLESS CANADA & OUR MEN AND WOMEN IN SERVICE !

R/H
"My brother's opinion (serving in Afghanistan) is that a temporary buffer zone around 2km wide should be declared along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border where no one is allowed. This area should be continuously patrolled by drones, and anything seen moving in this zone will have artillery rain down on that location."
What a fantastic idea, now if only the Powers To Be listened to the Soldier on the ground! That sounds like it could work. Not sure of how to put in in place but we have personnel that are paid and trained to figure it out, if only NATO had a real backbone! Not just a few vertebrae holding up the whole thing! And we all know who they are.
This war will never be won by anyone as long as we pussy foot around, we have to send in a LOT of Ground Troops and also a lot more armour. Even then, the Taliban are fighting for a Religion and that is powerful stuff, we are fighting for territory as someone has said.

Joe
We have extended our commitment til 2012, but I dont think all the things we ask for ( Manley report)to stay their was given ie 1000 more troops, helo's and so forth. Our Gov must look at the short fall and start thinking of pulling out. If we did'nt get the support from all of our NATO allies than why continue to support this mission. Out of the 2500 Canadian's deployed , only 1000 are fighting troop's on the ground with the rest as support. 1000 troops cannot secure the area given without the taliban moving in and out as they please. Its to hard to tell who is taliban or not and you cant treat everyone as if they were. If you want to completely clear the hole area, than you must first push all civilians out of their area, check all villages, than let them in 1 family at a time with proper ID. Than have the ANA OR ANP secure these villages and notify if anyone new has come into the area. Having a pressent on the ground is not good enough. Plus the locals must step up and work with the police and soldiers.
I blame the Afghan Gov for not getting their people to work for their freedom. Ive seen this first hand and knew than, that this was just another Vietnam style war. Let the outsiders do all the fighting and the locals do nothing. Most don't care who runs the country as long as they can grow their drug crops for the years money income. Either we commit to total war in Afghanistan or we should pull out. Stop this politcal police action and stop tieing our soldiers hands on how they should conduct this war.

Andrew E
The Taliban and terrorists kill our soldiers because they know they will get a front page news headline out of it. I think that in order to save lives, the media should stop making these killings headline news. (with all respect to our fallen soldiers)

Rick in NB
This is so sad. Everytime i see this i cry for the families and loved ones. This is especially sad for me as i am ati-war when it comes to Afganistan.
There is a talkshow host on a local radio station who always asks people that are against the war. Did the 90 soldiers die in vain? I think this is supposed to humble them. But i say to this host. Next year or the year after will you say did the 500 die in vain. We must face the truth, we as a NATO force were cowed into this action by the Bush administration. It is so sad that we have lost nearly a 100 of our finest.
Always question war! It should be the very last possible choice. God please protect our troops.

Time to leave
What we need is put the Taliban out of business by putting their people to work; we need to invest in Afghanistan: less soldiers more investment.

Golf Company Grunt
>>>terry
This whole exercise is futile, and we will continue to lose lives, right up to the point we leave with our tail between our legs.<<<

Your comment proves how little you know of the Canadian military. We have never, I repeat, never ran away from anything!!!

'Pro Patria'

TekGremlin
Al from Ottawa:

A buffer zone between Afghanistan and Pakistan would equal about 1500 square kilometers of land that would have to be monitored, as well as taken away from Afghan civilians. Taking peoples land is a sure way to make enemies.

Erica from Toronto
My sincere condolences to the families of these brave men. My heart goes out to you all.

Robin the Hood
This is what I have been saying all along... honestly it is tiresome and, in the case of this blog site, lonely to be right all the time! Harper and Co. are using the Afghan issue as a means to an end.. their own preservation of power using the fear card. Either triple the troop numbers or pull out!... the status quo means defeat and I'm fed up of poor soldiers being used by the Harper and Bush neo-cons as cannon fodder for their own power grab agenda and seeing them paying with their lives day after day! Its sickening.

Peter N
Send our trõops home or we send you home Mr. Harper

Patrick Bradley London
I agree With Golf Coy... Terry Ill never say Im ashamed to be a Canadian but I'm ashamed that there are so many close minded, ignorant people like you holding the same passport as me.

I also agree that the media needs to please not just show us the deaths, do your job and show the Canadian people not just the bad but the GOOD our guys and gals are doing over there. Please report the news not just the left side of it.

We're proud of our troops! So support them!

God Rest All Our Fallen

Joel From Scarbrough
Minimum 10,000 more troops needed so how come the media doesn't drum up the fight. The government should buy more ad space, commercials, and talk radio. How about listening to a soldier asking for help from us to win the fight!

Shaun
"Low troop levels" caused the death of 3 canadians?

How about NO troop levels. These 3 brave young men would still be alive.

J
If the Canadian military killed my family they would become my enemy.

For every person we kill we make four enemies. We cannot win. We need to leave now.

Doug BC
NATO needs an bit of a shaking up.Along with the benefits of being a part of the organization,it should be made much clearer that tose benefits come with a set of responsibilities.ALL countries should be doing their share.Likely set up o a "per capita" basis.
Sadly,domestic politics usually play a huge role in how a country reacts.
Everyone knows this battle is short of troops.NATO must act to remedy this.It is not good enough to support a mission,but only if it uses someone else's troops.
NATO is doomed to fail if the same small cirle of countries has to carry a disproportionate share of the burden.
REST IN PEACE MY FRIENDS.We also send our prayers and condolences to friends and families.

Linda in Vancouver
After all this time there are still people who don't know that this is a "UN" mission,being undertaken by NATO.It is not a Harper,or a Bush war.And,like it or not,there are MANY countries who supported this effort to help the people of Afghanistan.
While I totally agree that some NATO countries are not stepping up to do their share of the tough duty,the USA is not one of them.
Canada,with it's tiny population,needs to be part of a defense organization.If we aren't,be become the next "Georgia" when the USA runs out of oil.
If it was just Bush,or just Harper supporting this mission,I might be more wary.But this is a multi national effort.I doubt all of these leaders in all of these countries are wrong.
I still believe in this mission.I'm just really concerned about how it is being carried out.
And,by the way,this mission was started BEFORE Mr.Harper became PM.A fact conveniently ignored by those who want to re-elect the Liberals who sent our troops there.

Farooq
The General is wrong. If more troops were the answer, the problem would be licked by now. Russia was next door and had more troops. The US has more troops in Iraq and how are they faring.

Force is seldom the answer. I just wish that all Canadian soldiers were to return safely home and leave the Afghans to their own devices.

Pops
Manpower is at exactly the same level as it was 3 years ago when our government sent our military to 'kill scumbags'.

Apparently the 'scumbags' have multiplied. Who was in charge of planning and did they consider that?

MM
TO: "Stop the war"

I personally do not agree with the war myself and do not think Canada should be involved. BUT, we have soilders over there from our country, helping people, securing checkpoints etc. At least we can show them respect and support as we sit here at our safe homes and go to work everyday and come home and play with our children. Regardless of whether the mission is appropriate or not as a proud Canadian I support our brave troops!

Stop the war
To Joel from Scarborough who said "The government should buy more ad space, commercials, and talk radio" to get more people enlisted in the military.


There's a much easier and cheaper solution to recruiting. Simply get a few already enlisted soldiers on these shores to bring service contracts to those Red Friday gatherings. There are tons of war supporters there, and they're easy to spot in their red clothes - why wouldn't they enlist if approached by a real Canadian soldier with an offer to do so right then and there?

I'm surprised the government hasn't thought of this recruiting tactic already. It's a no-brainer!

Andrew.
My heart go's out to the family and friends of these brave men. My son served with Cpl. Grenon in 2006, at 22 he's way to young to lose this many friends. Please Nato give these men and woman the tools (in the form of man power) to get the job done.

Mike from Afghanistan
My condolences to the family of the fallen. To those who keep on comparing this mission to the Russian occupation please educate yourself and stop making ignorant comments. NATO is not carpet bombing villages and putting explosive devices in teddy bears for the children to pick up. We are here for security, governance and reconstruction. The vast majority of the people want us to be here. I know firsthand because I have been here for 6 months.

This war would come along a lot better if other NATO countries lifted their caveats. But, don't be so quick to criticize the French. They recently lost 10 soldiers in a direct fire engagement.

May
Pull our troops out now!

This is not Canadians war, like "J" said we are making enemies. Canada went there as a peace keeper and that is what it should be. Before Harper that it was the mission, and now it's to fight for what? to support Bush administration. The media is doing their job "keep us informed" it's time to stand for what is right for Canada.
Bring our troops home!

just dont understand
My condolences to the fallen soldiers families, may you rest in peace brave soldiers.

- Just dont understand why we have to be the ones to help if their own people/government wont do it themselves. Well obviously some people dont want our help over there and their government should be the one held accountable to fix THEIR countries problems, not us.... Canada should stop putting our valueable, irreplaceable brave citizens in harms way, when we have our own problems at home to fix, bring them home, leave that country to help themselves and see how far they get, hopefully they will see how much they have lost without us there. Dont think this is fair??? whats fair about us trying to help and we also end up losing??? some are not helpable if they arent willing to help themselves!